Poets & Thinkers
Poets & Thinkers explores the humanistic future of business leadership through deep, unscripted conversations with visionary minds – from best-selling authors and inspiring artists to leading academic experts and seasoned executives.
Hosted by tech executive, advisor, and Princeton entrepreneurship & design fellow Ben Lehnert, this podcast challenges conventional MBA wisdom, blending creative leadership, liberal arts, and innovation to reimagine what it means to lead in the AI era.
If you believe leadership is both an art and a responsibility, this is your space to listen, reflect, and evolve.
Poets & Thinkers
Do You Breathe When You Scroll? The Art of Digital Mindfulness with conceptual artist Hojin Kang
What if the very technology that distracts us could be transformed into a mirror reflecting our deepest human connections? In this fascinating episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the intersection of tradition, technology, and mindfulness with Berlin-based artist and designer Hojin Kang.
Born to Korean parents in Germany, Hojin creates art that brilliantly juxtaposes ancient spiritual practices with our modern digital behaviors, revealing striking parallels that challenge how we engage with the world around us.
Hojin takes us on a journey through his artistic evolution, from his early influences in both Korean Buddhist traditions and cutting-edge technology to his current work exploring human connection through thermal imaging. His provocative installations –from scrolling behaviors reimagined as prayer beads and notification bell sculptures that trigger visceral responses, to thermal imagining cameras in art and border surveillance – expose the tension between our mindless digital habits and the mindful traditions they inadvertently mimic.
Throughout our conversation, Hojin reveals how his dual perspective as both artist and designer shapes his creative process, embracing curiosity and emotion while maintaining craftsmanship and quality. As we navigate an increasingly AI-driven world, his insights on maintaining human connection and embodied experiences offer a compelling vision for how we might engage with technology without losing our essential humanity.
In this thought-provoking discussion, we explore:
- How scrolling behaviors mirror ancient meditation practices while serving opposite purposes
- The physiological conditioning created by notification sounds and their artistic reimagining
- Why maintaining the mind-body connection is crucial in an increasingly digital world
- How thermal imaging can reveal the warmth that transcends physical and cultural differences
- The balance between artistic curiosity and design discipline in creative work
This episode is an invitation to pause and reconsider our relationship with technology, to find spaces for mindfulness in our digital lives, and to recognize the human warmth that binds us despite our superficial differences.
Topics
00:30 - Introduction to Hojin Kang and his background
03:30 - Drawing inspiration from tradition and technology
06:50 - The parallel between prayer beads and social media scrolling
10:00 - The notification bell sculpture and our conditioned responses
15:00 - Technology's impact on our emotional and physiological states
18:40 - Art as observation rather than providing solutions
22:50 - Using technology as a tool while maintaining emancipation from it
28:00 - Cultivating curiosity about humanity above technology
33:00 - The importance of embodied experiences and physical creation
35:00 - "The Warmth That Binds Us" thermal imaging art project
41:20 - How thermal imagery removes visual markers of difference
44:00 - Balancing artistic expression with design discipline
49:20 - The importance of intrinsic motivation in creating meaningful work
Resources Mentioned
Please Wait (Digital Installation): https://www.hojinkang.com/please_wait/
Scrolling Prayer Beads (Sculpture):
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Welcome to Poets and Thinkers, the podcast where we explore the future of humanistic business leadership. I'm your host, ben, and today I'm speaking with Berlin-based conceptual artist and designer, Hojin Kang. Hojin and I met almost 20 years ago on our first day of art college, so I couldn't be more excited to sit down with Hojin, almost two decades later, to discuss his artistic work, which appears to be more crucial and timely than ever. Born to Korean parents in Germany, hojin creates art sculptures and installations that explore our presence in a post-digital era where technological acceleration is juxtaposed with our human physicality and mental state. His artworks integrate interactive technologies with traditional rituals and artifacts, drawing upon the Confucian culture and Buddhist philosophies inherent in his Korean heritage. With 3D-printed prayer beads, ar sculptures and breath-controlled light installations, he brings the physical experience of the viewer into the foreground, enabling them to become an integral part of the work.
Speaker 1:In a time of political division and cultural fragmentation, ho Jin's work seeks the transcendent qualities that interconnect us as human beings. In this episode, we explore Hojin's own personal journey through his artistic evolution, from his early influences in both Korean Buddhist traditions his father making him meditate and his grandmother's prayer beats to the cutting-edge technologies used in his latest installation project where he explores human connection through thermal imaging cameras used, among other purposes, for border surveillance. For me personally, this conversation sparked many thoughts on the responsibility we have as technology leaders, our mindless digital habits and the mindful ancient traditions that appear to be the antidote and can help us reconnect with our humanity. If you like the show, make sure you like, subscribe and share this podcast. Now let's jump into the conversation. All right, hojin, so great to have you. Where does this podcast find you?
Speaker 2:So I'm sitting here in my shared studio in Berlin Moabit, it's very cold here, but I've got my heaters so I'm fine.
Speaker 1:If there's one thing I don't miss, it's the winters in Berlin. I can tell you that. Why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself before we get started?
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course. So my name is Hojin Kang and I was born in Cologne, germany, which is in Western Germany. I studied in Saarbrücken at the HBK. It's the art school in Saarbrücken. It's also like the place where we met each other, which I'm very grateful for. After studying graphic design and media art and design, I moved to Hamburg for two years and then ended up in Berlin in 2016.
Speaker 1:Great and, as you mentioned, this is a very special conversation for me. Certainly, we have not actually seen each other in what we figured out earlier probably 18 years-ish so it's fantastic to get a chance to reconnect and I also just before we dive into all the questions I have for you, which are many when you went to Hamburg and the work that you did was initially really in very prestigious design agencies and I know that's still part of the work that you do, which is exciting but then eventually you put a lot more focus on your art and the work that you're doing as an artist. So today I will ask you some questions regarding your design work, but first and foremost, I want to make sure we get a chance to dive into your art, because it's something that has really consistently over the years, inspired me and I hope, will inspire a lot of people that listen to this. So when people go to your website, they check out your art.
Speaker 1:A lot of the titles of your body of work are really interesting and fascinating to me and I'm just going to read a few because I think it's a great segue into the rest of the conversation. So some of them are called Do you Breathe when you Scroll, please Wait. Or Scrolling Prayer Beats. So these are all sort of references to our digital daily lives and just if you can tell us a little bit about what's behind you know the work, those titles and means, tradition of my Korean heritage, which is rooted in Buddhist Game Boy when I was like six years old or something.
Speaker 2:So I was always also, like, drawn to technology and interactive media, so these are two things that always accompanied me in my daily life. My dad also had this martial arts school in Cologne when I was nine years old, had this martial arts school in Cologne when I was nine years old, and I always have to open up the school and clean up the school before the students came. And there was also, like these moments where I'm like nine years old, 10 years old, 12 years old, when my dad told me, like okay, you have to meditate to calm yourself. You're too don't know, like too, too, too worked up or something. Yeah, so this, this mindfulness, which is now very, very mainstream, like this was always part of my life.
Speaker 2:And looking at these two different, different parts, like the like tradition and technology, um, there are also like a lot of similarities. I see the parallels there, like, for example, when you look at how social media works, how, like our feeds work there, like how, how instagram works. So, um, you have this. Um, yeah, these, these, these posts which are connected, and if you scroll through them with your finger one by one, like after a while, you don't remember what you looked at, right? And I remember my grandma in Korea. She was Catholic and she had these prayer beads and she took them everywhere. Like she went to the kitchen with the prayer beads, but also to the bathroom, and she didn't have a smartphone back then, so what she did was like saying something, like probably praying something, and using this prayer beads. And then I saw how I use, or we use in the modern society, our smartphones to kill some time, but also maybe as a tool for meditation or a tool for introspection in a way. Yeah, I'm fascinated by these similarities or by these findings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is very interesting, and I remember clearly when I saw this specific piece of the scrolling prayer beads, which I would encourage everyone to actually go to your website, which we'll link to in the show notes, and go check out what they actually look like and there's a video, I believe, of someone using them. On the one hand, it's really interesting because the human behavior that you're describing, that you've observed, which in itself, for me, blew my mind because I hadn't thought about it that way, and then I saw the work and it immediately, of course, clicked. But it is interesting because the behavior is very similar. But then, on the other hand, you basically have this extreme tension between mindlessness and mindfulness. Right, one is really, if you use it with intention, the prayer beads are supposed to be a form of meditation and cultivating mindfulness and then, on the other hand, you have your scrolling behavior, which we all very much so know that is absolutely mindless and really doing the opposite of moving you inwards. In fact, oftentimes it's really just hijacking your brain to just give you one after the other dopamine hit right. So I think it's incredibly fascinating to think about. You know, that tension that we find in our lives and even just putting the awareness there and then hopefully becoming more mindful and intentional about when we use which tool and what the goal is in using that. So that's really fascinating to me.
Speaker 1:Now another piece which I believe was from the same exhibition that you did was, or is this notification bell sculpture, which I would love for you to talk about, because I had the and I and I can share this after you've talked about the work I. I had a very intense reaction to that, so why don't you maybe just talk about that a little bit? Uh, what inspired it? How does it work? Um, yeah, so everyone, everyone can you know, can learn a little bit more about it yeah, um.
Speaker 2:so the notification bell, or the mindfulness bell, is also inspired by the, by this tension between tradition and technology, where we probably are all located, like in our present time, right now. So there was always like this, this need or this, this wish inside me to meditate more, probably inspired by my, by my father, who always said, like, okay, sit down, meditate, don't be so, yeah, worked up. So there was always like this wish okay, if I meditate more, I will be more calm and maybe a better person. But then there's also like like now, the, the world of the smartphone, or like the age of the smartphone, where we live, live in, where we get like constant notifications Bing, there's like a new message on Instagram. Bing, there's a new email coming in, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2:So there again, I saw this parallel between technology and tradition. They're like they both use bells. There's like this meditation bell, like this gong which starts like a Buddhist meditation, for example, and there's like this notification bell we all know from smartphones. Yeah, I saw this icon on my iPhone the other day and thought like, okay, I have to make a sculpture out of it. Like this will be amazing. And then I, yeah, build it in in 3d, print it in 3d, put it on this on this pedestal and thought, okay, and now, um, when? When visitors come in and see this, yeah, kind of spiritually looking sculpture and it's all white right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's all white right.
Speaker 2:And it's all white, yeah, of course. So it's like a mixture of a spiritual religious temple and Apple store. And then you come in there and then, but you hear this notification sound Everybody knows nowadays and it doesn't hit once, like in a meditation session. It hits all the time and suddenly, like people're looking for this, their phones, like shit, I'm, I'm in this museum environment and I should mute my phone, right, and then it's not my phone. Where is it coming from?
Speaker 1:so, yeah, yeah, playing, playing with this, this tension right, yeah, and the and the physiological response that I observed in myself is intense.
Speaker 1:It just makes you realize how we're so conditioned to specifically that sound, right it's. It's incredible when you experience it, and especially when you of course in a museum kind of setting. I think it just heightens the, the response, and then you have the social awareness, as you said, around you. Um, you know it's not supposed to happen, but you start to realize how conditioned we are and how conditioned our brains are to you know there is that hit of biochemical reaction that you're getting Absolutely, and going back to the scrolling prayer beads, which I think it just it makes it so clear the impact that these technologies and these, you know now, going back a little bit to the very beginning, the design decisions that I certainly, you know, hold myself accountable there as having been in the tech industry for about 20 years now the responsibility that we have and the impact we have on not just people's life on a very rational, functional level, but on an emotional and physiological level.
Speaker 1:To me, that sculpture really, you know, does a job like nothing else that I've experienced in the art world to really kind of pull that out.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. So, yeah, I think this is like also again where our path crosses, like Benedict right, where, yeah, yeah, the technological world, or the tech tech industry world and the art and well world of traditions and religions, like, like, pass and and cross again. Like there is this unconscious impact and influence we have on society and on, especially on on the younger, younger people who who now use these, these tools like the like, like tools as we used or we consumed, like television before. Yeah, so it was mindless in a way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would say like, yeah, supercharged essentially now, because it's always there, right, it's always on, it's always there. Just to kind of add one additional thought, because to me, as you said, these worlds are so intersected and part of why I'm having these conversations with people like you is to create more awareness, but also to use all of these insights and start envisioning how do we lead into a better future. I had a student of mine at Princeton. She studied neuroscience and art. She as one of her, I think, her junior paper. She did research on addictive behaviors, especially as it relates to social media, and after she was done writing the paper, she deleted pretty much halfway through writing the writing process. She deleted all the social media apps from her phone and said I can't do this, I can't use these anymore. I'm realizing what it does. Incredible job, without being patronizing or talking down at people, to just make them experience some of those effects in a way that hopefully some people can rethink their relationship that they have with the technology.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much like this was also my goal. To be honest, like just the things you said, I don't have this solution to it right, like I'm um, I'm just a normal person. I'm interested in art, technology and our society as a whole, so I'm not coming up with solutions in my artworks Like these are observations of our world. So I'm just sharing the observations and the parallels and the feelings I get from our contemporary time, so to speak. Yeah, so if, like, a person comes to my exhibition experiences like the mindfulness bell, for example, or the prayer beads and goes home and has, like maybe like a clicking moment or something, this is the best case scenario. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:So before we move on to some other questions that I had, I need to ask you because you mentioned twice that your father had you meditate whenever you felt worked up. I am trying the same, you know, both for myself, but also trying to cultivate that with my daughter, yeah, and so the question to you is I know you have a son, I know he's still quite young, but do you make him meditate too?
Speaker 2:so he's three and a half years old and he's a wild horse. He's a whirlwind. I was a lot more introverted, to be honest. He's like super extroverted and I love it about him, but it's also very exhausting, of course. No, no, to be honest, I didn't yet try to meditate with him. I would say he's too young. But also after the experience I had with my dad, I would try a different approach.
Speaker 1:As so many of us, we're learning and unlearning.
Speaker 2:Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1:That's great, just because I have so many questions for you. One that I really wanted to ask you about was your use of technology, not just your reference of technology observations, but your use of technology, which is an essential part to the way you practice your art and your exhibitions as well. You already mentioned earlier sculpting in 3D software, I assume, and then using 3D printing to produce the artwork. I also know that you're using augmented reality, you're using AI tools in your work, and I love all of that, especially because of the focus of your work. But how do you see these technologies really driving some of the artwork that you're doing? How do you leverage them? And then, of course, my big question for you is what do you see are the biggest challenges right now when it comes to our relationship with AI, with all of these new, very immersive technologies? So you can take the question any one way, but I think you have, very early on, been working with this and have for a long time now, so I would love to get your take on all of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So when I think about all these different technologies I already used for my artworks, like starting with projection mapping and using the body as an interaction tool with a Microsoft Kinect and now focusing a lot on, like, 3d printing and augmented reality and AI, of course Technology is always there's always this curiosity, experimenting and playing around with new technology, like giving a child a new toy which he or she never saw before, testing out all like the boundaries of this, of this new toy, and I always try to remember that in the end it is just a tool. So I always try for myself to be some kind of like emancipated by the tool. So if, for example, tomorrow there would be no AI anymore or no augmented reality, or not the possibility to use augmented reality anymore, I could still continue with my art, so to speak. So this is always something I have in mind. Maybe it's because, like, I grew up in an, in a analog time, where I had pencils and pens and brushes, creating, creating artworks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like this idea of, or notion of, emancipation because, especially in the current hype cycle that we're in around this new certainly AI technology, I think there's something incredibly valuable for humans to gain by this notion of emancipation and staying emancipated and using, because I think only from that place you can actually then determine how you want to use the technology.
Speaker 1:And especially, you know, now, again, my observation in the technology industry is that there's such, there's a very dominant narrative around this technology is going to take over everything and it's going to, you know, take over jobs, and it's going to do this and automate that, and it creates this, this underlying narrative of there's nothing we can do about this. It's going to happen this way. Um, you know, this whole idea of transhumanism that is perpetuated through that I personally don't subscribe to. But I think, in order for us to make use of the technology in a positive way, we need to first get to this place that you're describing of emancipation, of a certain level of confidence in our ability to harness this technology, but also to always say, well, no, at the end of the day, I'm in control, absolutely, and I can mold this technology in the way that I see fit.
Speaker 2:What do you think are the core qualities that we need to cultivate to have that healthy sense of emancipation and confidence, maybe even creative confidence, looking at the geopolitical happenings right now and also looking at the technological topics right now, I think the first thing I would tell my son and these children is like not losing hope in humanity. And then the second thing would be be curious about technology but be even more curious about humanity and humans. So what makes us humans and what do we need? What? What are the needs of of us as individuals and us as a collective? This would be maybe something I would like tell my son, and maybe also like students, starting there, like as a fundament.
Speaker 2:And there is also this embodied cognition theory, right, this interrelation between the mind and the body. So you can't think of the mind and the body as separate entities. It's all interconnected. Like the body influences the mind but the mind also influences the body, which is one of the core features of our, of our human application. Right, and yeah, focus on, focus on that, like really refocus on that and train that. Like never, never lose that, never lose that out of your sight, regardless of which technology comes afterwards, even if it's ai or brain to brain to robot interfaces or whatsoever yeah, and I, I really like that perspective.
Speaker 1:And you know, if there's one thing about this connection between our minds and our bodies that I've been thinking quite a bit about and in the context of you know, how do we lead into the future, is the creative act, right, the act of creating, which we're inherently born with, right, every child when you see them, they're incredibly creative.
Speaker 1:Absolutely that ability to create and make things right with whatever tools you have, and you mentioned earlier, you know, I think we both had the good fortune to be trained, still in very analog techniques, and one of the the, the core memories that I have of you and I and maybe we can even put up a photo I know there's an old photo of you and I in in our art school studio together but it's this, this ability to make something right, no matter the tool. And you're trained in foundational principles, from color and color psychology to you know, shapes and giving shape to objects and ideas. That, I think, builds that creative confidence, because it's not just an intellectual act, it's actually through the making that you're cultivating that, the creative confidence which probably is at the core of this emancipation, that absolutely mentioning absolutely the.
Speaker 2:The relationship I have with the world through my body, through my hands, through through my skin. Yeah, which is like our first, yeah, the first relationship we have with this world. When you look at, like small children, right, like they don't start in VR or something. You know that's right.
Speaker 2:They don't start like prompting. The first years are like getting confidence, like standing on two feet touching like um, taking stuff in their, their mouth and, yeah, of course, like we, we develop as we get older and everything, and, like I said before, like I'm also very curious about all new technology, but always with a, with a big butt, like not letting these fundaments out of your sight and also, yeah, maybe block some time to train these. These fundaments, which could be like very traditional techniques, like really like yoga, meditation, whatsoever, martial arts, but it could be also some something completely else, just not like not losing this relationship to your mind and your body yeah, no, we are.
Speaker 1:I mean, we are physical beings, right, that's how we connect with the world. As you say, that's how we connect with each other, which is probably the perfect segue we couldn't have set it up any better to your latest work, which is titled and I need to get this right the warmth that binds us. And I remember you sending me the concept initially and I mean I loved it from the, from the get-go, but I let you talk about it. What is it about? Just walk, walk me, walk me and everyone who's, who's listening and watching through what this project is about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the warmth that binds us is still a work in progress, still looking for some funding. So everybody listening right now, maybe if you're interested. It's a media installation. It's a video installation.
Speaker 1:The main focus lies on thermal images, like a thermal image film I filmed with thermal image cameras which are just to for everyone are cameras that record the heat signature of objects, specifically, in your case, humans right, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So in my case, probably, you know, like these thermal images from national borders, for example, where thermal image cameras are used for people hiding in the forest night, because, like, of course, like the heat signatures are are perfect to find.
Speaker 2:Yeah living living yeah, living living bodies, and I found this, this aesthetic, but also the idea of not recording humans with traditional photography but with thermal imaging image image camera, so fascinating. So I started recording my family. So what I did now is, for the last month, to record my son. Also record my partner, the mother of my son. Also record my parents, the grandparents of my son and also friends, like in, yeah, quite normal situations where we meet up, where we take a walk at the beach, where we sit on the couch, where we hug each other, where we just sit down and eat together. Um so, um, yeah, what what happens is that you like that these visual details like like hair color or cloth, they disappear in this aesthetic and suddenly you only see like two or three colorful blobs interacting with each other, intersecting into each other and, like I also combine these thermal images with translucent materials. Oh, um, yeah, if you play around a little bit with these translucent materials and these thermal images, um yeah, you get this kind of like immaterial, metaphysical forms.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Suddenly, you don't have like these two people, like the mother and the child, next to each other. Suddenly there are like two big forms, two big blobs of heat next to each other, right, right, which is just fascinating for me.
Speaker 1:So, but there's a second component to at least the way you're planning the exhibition, right. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so if the visitor comes into this installation, there will be also infrared heat sensors and the whole space will get heated up so you really experience the warmth that you, that you see on this thermal image projection, so it becomes like a really embodied experience, like this is something I'm, yeah, always interested in, like having this, these embodied more or less also like very emotional experiences you get like when you, when you see art as I said earlier, from the moment I read the concept I was, I was absolutely fascinated.
Speaker 1:Then there's so many layers to it, right, you mentioned earlier how you know these cameras are being used in life or death situations, right. But then when you look at, for example, traditional Chinese medicine, where heat is life force, right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And then you have this making this visible and having the visitors then eventually, in the museum or the gallery, experience a heat signature that is generated based on what you've recorded. It, um, and then and then really the, the absolute aesthetic beauty of um, the way these show up in and I've seen some of your, the demos, your tests is is just incredible and I think it has the same kind of quality we talked about earlier where it really makes you think, um about yourself and the way we interrelate with others, not just in terms of the direct recordings of the videos that you have, but for me is the whole. Well, how do we connect as a society where we're using these kind of technologies to not necessarily connect with the people that we're recording?
Speaker 2:Absolutely Also what I said before. Like you, maybe you know or you saw these thermal images in relation to national borders or something like where illegal immigrants are being kept off the national border. And, of course, right now, geopolitically, this is the big topic and, yeah, there is this tendency right now of division. And yeah, there is like this tendency right now of division. And, yeah, I'm just fascinated in this technology, but also like fascinated in uniting, which is like a cliche, of course, but um, yeah, I'm fascinated in the qualities that that unite us. Yeah, regardless of gender, skin color and religion, like when you, when you look at these thermal images, like there is no skin color in the end. So my family is also like a migrant family, uh, made up of guest workers from korea, and, yeah, we are are like a biracial family now with my German partner. So, when you look at traditional photographs of us, you see skin color, you see different cultures, but you don't see them on these thermal images.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's beautiful, really beautiful. Thank you. Before we wrap up, I want to go back to what I said at the beginning, because you're trained as a designer and you're now still, to a certain degree, sometimes, from what I know, work as a designer. How do you reconcile the way we are trained as designers to be commercially focused, focus on function in the work that we do predominantly, versus, you know, as an artist, you're focusing on, you know, expressing first and foremost your personal observations, with a goal to, as you said earlier, not have answers but ask questions or hopefully have the visitor, the viewer, ask themselves questions in order to provoke right to, to move them into a different mental state, emotional state, what, what have you? So how does that look like for you? How do you, how do you navigate that? How do you balance that?
Speaker 2:so, and that's a super question, I would say, in my art projects, the, the, the lead is the artist inside me, which is like influenced by curiosity. So I'm curious about a thing, an idea, a material or a feeling or something. It moves me or it, yeah, it just overcomes me. I can't stop thinking about it. So I have to have to deal with it, I have to explore it. The designer comes later and he's still there and he, he's always there and I would say, like, the designer has the role of a quality manager. So, like, if, like the, the artist part is like more driven by emotions and, um, yeah, it's not as detailed and not as like perfectionistic or as aesthetically.
Speaker 2:The designer has, like this, this role of quality manager, where he vetoes like like a, like, like a decision, or he's not like satisfied with the production of something and so there is like this conflict in between like, yeah, the, the, the um emotional lead and the very, yeah, craft, craft driven designer, yeah, and in the end, in the end, it's like a the question of budget and time, right, true?
Speaker 1:that's a fair point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, very good, very good. That that is um a really interesting spin of on on. You know what.
Speaker 1:What I was trying to get to, and really the reason I asked was because I do believe in the times that we're living through now and in order to really build a future that we all want to live in, in a humanistic future, we actually need to cultivate more of the qualities of, you know, the artists that you described, of leaning into the curiosity, leaning into the emotional experience, even and especially in the commercial context.
Speaker 1:One of the reasons I started this podcast and having these conversations and called it Poets and Thinkers is because I believe that, in order for us to build a better future, we cannot seek for answers solely in the business schools and the MBA programs that have gotten us into this place. We need to look beyond that and really embrace the entirety of the human experience. And then I love the way you described the role of the designer to then shape. Once we have leaned into that curiosity and leaned into that emotional experience, then start shaping it into something that, of course, has commercial success and can work. But I think we need to definitely go beyond the very functional, rational, efficiency-driven processes in the way we approach work and building anything really in this world, from from products to companies yeah, like um 100, 100.
Speaker 2:I would like also say like, I think what will be so much more important in the in the next couple of years is not like motivate, uh like like motivated by an extrinsic. I think what will be so much more important in the next years will be like this intrinsic motivation and less the extrinsic motivation. So what I mean by that is that if we are only motivated by extrinsic motivation, which can be economy, which can be politics, which also can be aesthetics, I would say like the the, the chance that we create something very meaningful and purposeful is quite small. And I would say, if we lean more and be more, take this risk to look into more in this intrinsic motivation, which doesn't always have to be like super emotional, super spiritual, super esoteric you know what I mean like there is like also intrinsic motivation which can be very rational in the end, but which really drives us and where we, where there is like a real relevance, I see, yeah, great hope yeah, yeah, no, I think that you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1:I think there is a there's a certain level of integrity. That is is just important, you know, a clarity on of of purpose and an intention that is not as present in in you know, at least the business world often, where these external factors are the dominating factors, and finding a bit more of a balance, which is, I think, what you're trying to get to, is critically important. Yeah, I think that's an absolutely great kind of wrap-up and it describes so much of why I am having these conversations, because I'm also learning and curious about you know where we can go Before we wrap two things. I just realized I probably still owe you money for lunch when we were in art school. So next time I see you in Berlin, I will take you out for lunch or dinner. But the second thing is what is next for you? What are you currently working on on?
Speaker 2:yeah, so the next thing will be probably finding an exhibition space for the warmth that binds us. So the plan is to exhibit it this year, probably in berlin. And yeah, um, there will be also like a teaching gig coming up at our former art school, probably in may, which also deals with the topic of mind matter and media and this, this triangle. So, yeah, that's exciting.
Speaker 1:Well, I need to make sure that I come and see both. If they let me back in, I will. I will make it there. Thank you so much. This is fantastic. I can't wait to see the Womb that Binds Us as an actual exhibition. I'm super excited. We need to figure out how we get this to the US. I think this would be a great exhibition to be done maybe in New York City. So thanks again. It was great to have you.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me Patrick, it was an honor to be here and a pleasure seeing you again.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to Poets and Thinkers. If you like this episode, make sure you hit follow and subscribe to get the latest episodes wherever you listen to your podcast.
